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Sorry to anyone with good comments I left out. Aevylmar corrects my claim that Milton Friedman supported a basic income: And Virbie further explains the differences between UBI and negative income tax: The main difference is that discussing it in terms of NIT neatly skips over a lot of the objections that people raise to flat UBIs that are abstractly and mathematically but not logistically or politically trivial.

Many of these focus on how to get to the new policy position from where we are now. Adding negative tax brackets at the bottom of the existing system and modifying top marginal rates is a simpler way to handle this and extends gracefully from the current system instead of having to work awkwardly alongside it. In the example above, the NIT approach has the logistical advantage of the bureaucracy and systems we already have handling it more easily.

Plus people on social security can be forced to take jobs or education. The work has to be neutral to the competition and in the public interest. So people are hired at a lot of public institutions e. Additionally these jobs improved the unemployment statistics at a low cost for the government, as people who are working in these jobs count as employed although most of these jobs are only part time jobs.

Murphy describes the UK experience: Your manager is abusive? You have no rights. Hope you like starvation and death. So if your manager demands you suck his dick then make sure to bring kneepads to work. Remarkably employers who suddenly had the option of free labor along with free money from the government leapt at the option so people found themselves fired from positions only to find themselves required to do the same job a few weeks later only this time without pay.

The government was taken to court over it, the court rules it unlawful. I now work part-time in a supermarket. It is just that I expect to get paid for working. Herbert Herbertson on the Native American experience: Unirt describes the Finnish experience: There has been a universal employment trial in a Finnish town Paltamo, which lasted 3 or 4 years.

Apparently it costed the government more than just paying unemployment subsidies, and they found that undesirable. Doktor Relling describes the Scandinavian experience: Scandinavian countries have for some years had something functionally similar to a Universal Basic Job guarantee.

Since we have been doing this for some years and increasingly the rest of Europe likewise , we have some empirical knowledge of the pros and cons. For those interested, here is a simplified walkthrough of the system full disclosure: Effects of the system: When the social assistance administration does the work test, it discovers that many long-term social assistance claimants are actually disabled which was never found out before we introduced the activation requirement plus work test.

Hence they qualify for a disability pension instead somewhat similar to US Special Supplementary Income. Their complaint is that the government does not always follow up its job guarantee in practice. Why not a Universal Basic Income instead? Most of the weaknesses of a UBI have already been pointed out in the discussion by rahien. Let me just re-state that many disabilities are really expensive.

A UBI will not be sufficient to grant people with severe disabilities a good life. It is messy, difficult, and yes there are Type I and II errors, but these problems are unavoidable if voters want to provide people with disabilities with more than what everyone else gets. And hey this role conflict is difficult but it is not THAT difficult; after all we have been able to live with this role conflict for more than a hundred years.

Yakimi describes the Nauru experience: There are societies where entire populations have been unconditionally emancipated from the necessity of labor. I have seldom heard basic income advocates talk about these precedents, probably because these experiments do nothing to justify their optimism.

These people who once lived on a diet of coconut and fish used their sudden influx of wealth to import all the worst excesses of civilization, leaving them with the highest obesity and diabetes rates in the world and a life expectancy of We might also look to the banlieues of France, where the youth unemployment rate is over forty percent and the underclass survives, illicit economic activities aside, at the expense of the generous French welfare state. Is there any evidence at all these beneficiaries are grateful to have been freed from drudgery?

If anything, their lack of economic stake only seems to aggravate their resentment against a society that is keeping them humiliatingly idle. As recent events remind us, men hate being made to feel superfluous. Nor does there any appear to be evidence that their idleness has enabled the Byrons, Churchills, Von Brauns, et al. They are quite capable of setting cars on fire, though. There are no doubt people, like yourself, who are natural aristocrats, who are very good at finding discipline, purpose, etc.

But it is solipsistic to assume that most, or even many, humans can operate functionally when made entirely independent of the disciplinary pressure of having to earn your fill. Posthuman biotrash is a big enough problem already, and basic income can only make it worse. But does work help? Suppose Alex lives in a ghetto and spends 12 hours a day watching TV and eating Cheetos.

Bob lives in the same ghetto, works at a gas station 8 hours a day selling people lotto tickets, then comes home and watches TV and eats Cheetos for 4 hours. Would you rather be Alex or Bob?

Would you rather Alex exist, or Bob exist? If you want to make the argument for work, you have to argue that it does something other than turning Alex into Bob. I think ghettos full of Alexes is a very likely outcome. I only have one small quibble. In fact it would probably be the opposite where there is too little to do and a lot of it is pointless busy work, like in high school.

Yes, this is a good point. Most surveys seem to find job satisfaction is higher in the private sector than the public sector, but I could imagine the opposite being true for the most-exploited kinds of unskilled labor.

Naj on another way things can go wrong: It seems to me that many people whose lives suffer due to lack of money are in significant debt and that debt payments are a large fraction of their income. Solving this problem also seems full of opaque bureaucracies and Kafkaesque rituals.

Unless we just ban loaning money with interest for consumptive goods at the same time a policy I might just favor. Bankrupts will still be entitled to UBI.

The risk of loaning to someone with nothing but UBI would be huge, so no lender would lend. The point of something like Basic Jobs is that giving people the option, but not the obligation, may result in better outcomes for some people at the margins.

A splint is safer than a spleen removal, as they say. In other words, I think you are committing a mistake by comparing your Utopian vision to another Utopian vision which I do not advocate. I do not think any Utopian vision is good or possible. You can make UBI look better by comparing it to other Utopian ideas, but this is in effect masking the deficiencies of UBI by comparing it to something else unrealistic.

I do not want to give the impression that Basic Jobs would ever accommodate everyone as UBI may intend to do. With UBI, everyone would take it, and many people who can work would quit. This may make a job guarantee at least remotely feasible. This is the same as the difference between a homeless shelter and a rent subsidy: As such, a job guarantee may even save money if it replaces unemployment benefits.

It works if the goal is to keep the poor from starving, rather than to give them a decent standard of living. This is a good and important point. After all, it can be funded by a tax such that rich people overall pay more in extra taxes than they get in UBI, middle-class people pay the same, and poor people get more in UBI than they pay in taxes.

Because basic jobs are potentially unpleasant, they act as a screening mechanism so that only people who really need them will take them. That means even targeted at the same income level, they would be less universal than UBI another commenter points out that we could produce the same effect by making people wait in line for eight hours a day to receive their daily UBI check.

That means that as the economy grows, the basic income increases. At the beginning, the basic income might not really be enough to live off of especially if I got my calculations wrong. As we get more things like robot labor and productivity increases, so does the income.

Then various Congresspeople can debate at what point the UBI is large enough that we can eliminate various welfare programs. On the one hand, welfare programs can be sticky, so we might worry they would be overly cautious. Yaleocon on winding down UBI: Candidates—at least, the winning ones—will only ever pledge to defend or expand it. This also probably makes UBI a fiscally unsustainable policy in the long term. Once those political incentives are taken into account, I think we should view UBI as an irreversible, and probably unsustainable, change to our economic system.

Scott or any other knowledgeable UBI advocate , do you stand by the assertion that UBI would be easy to end, and if so, why?

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Sorry to anyone with good comments I left out. Aevylmar corrects my claim that Milton Friedman supported a basic income: And Virbie further explains the differences between UBI and negative income tax: The main difference is that discussing it in terms of NIT neatly skips over a lot of the objections that people raise to flat UBIs that are abstractly and mathematically but not logistically or politically trivial.

Many of these focus on how to get to the new policy position from where we are now. Adding negative tax brackets at the bottom of the existing system and modifying top marginal rates is a simpler way to handle this and extends gracefully from the current system instead of having to work awkwardly alongside it. In the example above, the NIT approach has the logistical advantage of the bureaucracy and systems we already have handling it more easily.

Plus people on social security can be forced to take jobs or education. The work has to be neutral to the competition and in the public interest.

So people are hired at a lot of public institutions e. Additionally these jobs improved the unemployment statistics at a low cost for the government, as people who are working in these jobs count as employed although most of these jobs are only part time jobs. Murphy describes the UK experience: Your manager is abusive?

You have no rights. Hope you like starvation and death. So if your manager demands you suck his dick then make sure to bring kneepads to work. Remarkably employers who suddenly had the option of free labor along with free money from the government leapt at the option so people found themselves fired from positions only to find themselves required to do the same job a few weeks later only this time without pay.

The government was taken to court over it, the court rules it unlawful. I now work part-time in a supermarket. It is just that I expect to get paid for working. Herbert Herbertson on the Native American experience: Unirt describes the Finnish experience: There has been a universal employment trial in a Finnish town Paltamo, which lasted 3 or 4 years. Apparently it costed the government more than just paying unemployment subsidies, and they found that undesirable.

Doktor Relling describes the Scandinavian experience: Scandinavian countries have for some years had something functionally similar to a Universal Basic Job guarantee. Since we have been doing this for some years and increasingly the rest of Europe likewise , we have some empirical knowledge of the pros and cons.

For those interested, here is a simplified walkthrough of the system full disclosure: Effects of the system: When the social assistance administration does the work test, it discovers that many long-term social assistance claimants are actually disabled which was never found out before we introduced the activation requirement plus work test.

Hence they qualify for a disability pension instead somewhat similar to US Special Supplementary Income. Their complaint is that the government does not always follow up its job guarantee in practice. Why not a Universal Basic Income instead? Most of the weaknesses of a UBI have already been pointed out in the discussion by rahien. Let me just re-state that many disabilities are really expensive.

A UBI will not be sufficient to grant people with severe disabilities a good life. It is messy, difficult, and yes there are Type I and II errors, but these problems are unavoidable if voters want to provide people with disabilities with more than what everyone else gets. And hey this role conflict is difficult but it is not THAT difficult; after all we have been able to live with this role conflict for more than a hundred years. Yakimi describes the Nauru experience: There are societies where entire populations have been unconditionally emancipated from the necessity of labor.

I have seldom heard basic income advocates talk about these precedents, probably because these experiments do nothing to justify their optimism. These people who once lived on a diet of coconut and fish used their sudden influx of wealth to import all the worst excesses of civilization, leaving them with the highest obesity and diabetes rates in the world and a life expectancy of We might also look to the banlieues of France, where the youth unemployment rate is over forty percent and the underclass survives, illicit economic activities aside, at the expense of the generous French welfare state.

Is there any evidence at all these beneficiaries are grateful to have been freed from drudgery? If anything, their lack of economic stake only seems to aggravate their resentment against a society that is keeping them humiliatingly idle.

As recent events remind us, men hate being made to feel superfluous. Nor does there any appear to be evidence that their idleness has enabled the Byrons, Churchills, Von Brauns, et al. They are quite capable of setting cars on fire, though. There are no doubt people, like yourself, who are natural aristocrats, who are very good at finding discipline, purpose, etc. But it is solipsistic to assume that most, or even many, humans can operate functionally when made entirely independent of the disciplinary pressure of having to earn your fill.

Posthuman biotrash is a big enough problem already, and basic income can only make it worse. But does work help? Suppose Alex lives in a ghetto and spends 12 hours a day watching TV and eating Cheetos. Bob lives in the same ghetto, works at a gas station 8 hours a day selling people lotto tickets, then comes home and watches TV and eats Cheetos for 4 hours.

Would you rather be Alex or Bob? Would you rather Alex exist, or Bob exist? If you want to make the argument for work, you have to argue that it does something other than turning Alex into Bob. I think ghettos full of Alexes is a very likely outcome. I only have one small quibble. In fact it would probably be the opposite where there is too little to do and a lot of it is pointless busy work, like in high school.

Yes, this is a good point. Most surveys seem to find job satisfaction is higher in the private sector than the public sector, but I could imagine the opposite being true for the most-exploited kinds of unskilled labor. Naj on another way things can go wrong: It seems to me that many people whose lives suffer due to lack of money are in significant debt and that debt payments are a large fraction of their income.

Solving this problem also seems full of opaque bureaucracies and Kafkaesque rituals. Unless we just ban loaning money with interest for consumptive goods at the same time a policy I might just favor. Bankrupts will still be entitled to UBI. The risk of loaning to someone with nothing but UBI would be huge, so no lender would lend. The point of something like Basic Jobs is that giving people the option, but not the obligation, may result in better outcomes for some people at the margins.

A splint is safer than a spleen removal, as they say. In other words, I think you are committing a mistake by comparing your Utopian vision to another Utopian vision which I do not advocate. I do not think any Utopian vision is good or possible. You can make UBI look better by comparing it to other Utopian ideas, but this is in effect masking the deficiencies of UBI by comparing it to something else unrealistic. I do not want to give the impression that Basic Jobs would ever accommodate everyone as UBI may intend to do.

With UBI, everyone would take it, and many people who can work would quit. This may make a job guarantee at least remotely feasible. This is the same as the difference between a homeless shelter and a rent subsidy: As such, a job guarantee may even save money if it replaces unemployment benefits. It works if the goal is to keep the poor from starving, rather than to give them a decent standard of living.

This is a good and important point. After all, it can be funded by a tax such that rich people overall pay more in extra taxes than they get in UBI, middle-class people pay the same, and poor people get more in UBI than they pay in taxes.

Because basic jobs are potentially unpleasant, they act as a screening mechanism so that only people who really need them will take them. That means even targeted at the same income level, they would be less universal than UBI another commenter points out that we could produce the same effect by making people wait in line for eight hours a day to receive their daily UBI check.

That means that as the economy grows, the basic income increases. At the beginning, the basic income might not really be enough to live off of especially if I got my calculations wrong. As we get more things like robot labor and productivity increases, so does the income. Then various Congresspeople can debate at what point the UBI is large enough that we can eliminate various welfare programs. On the one hand, welfare programs can be sticky, so we might worry they would be overly cautious.

Yaleocon on winding down UBI: Candidates—at least, the winning ones—will only ever pledge to defend or expand it. This also probably makes UBI a fiscally unsustainable policy in the long term. Once those political incentives are taken into account, I think we should view UBI as an irreversible, and probably unsustainable, change to our economic system. Scott or any other knowledgeable UBI advocate , do you stand by the assertion that UBI would be easy to end, and if so, why?

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